Scion XB Forum banner
1 - 19 of 19 Posts

·
Royal Floor Sweeper
Joined
·
4,314 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
OK, I'm used to driving cars fast on mountain twisties.
My main car for over a decade has been a 90 Miata that was well set up for mountain driving. It is so balanced that Dr Dave of DDM Works (a Miata & Mini specialist) once said it was his favorite Miata he's driven to attack a mountain road, second ONLY to his own anyways. I asked him to corner balance it, but he refused as it would be money for no real change to how it is.

Is the Miata is FR, I realized that such still affects how I drive the B. Now, the B is only slightly slower on a curve (40-45 on a posted 20mph curve, as opposed to 45-50 in the Miata- depending on the width and sweep of the tight 90* or more) than the B as I drive it now. But, I think it could be closer.

I've been watching Initial D anime on Netflix and they discuss some on the FF advantages and left foot braking. I've never done that in the B, really.
Any other advice on driving a FF fast in a corner?



Edit:
Disclaimer-
"I consider myself a seasoned driver blah blah.. please don't try to break any laws"? I'd hate to think some inexperienced noob driver did him/herself in going around a corner too fast with no ideas how to handle it!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
18 Posts
Are you on stock suspension and tires? I would hope not. Cornering and twists is definitely not a strong point of the Xb. I did notice the handling improved on mine after I lowered it with Eibach Sportlines but even then, its a far cry from my Focus in the cornering and handling department due to its weight and height, even lowered.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
67 Posts
Here is the basics you need to know about FF vs FR. FF's driving style is in such a way that you literally "power" your way through a corner. The benefit from having your wheels pull you through corners rather than push you makes it as such. FF cars benefits corners when your RPMs are on the higher side which in turn gives you more control. When your car is in the lower RPMs, you don't have as much control because the lack of throttle response shows. I'm watched the entire series of Initial D and what they discuss is that FF/left food braking goes along with what I stated previous. The purpose of left foot braking is to keep your RPMs high (using your right foot) while braking at the same time. FF cars are not known for having the rear end slip out because you stepped on the gas too hard. Also, body roll is going to slow you down as well. Having both a strut bar and a sway bar will help with this but also how your spring rate is as well. Coilovers are going to give you the maximum effect on how you set up your spring rate but then again, 1k for coilovers is intense.

Just my 2 cents, probably not 100% true but thats about the jest of it.
 

·
Royal Floor Sweeper
Joined
·
4,314 Posts
Discussion Starter · #7 · (Edited)
I am happy with the "feel" of mine. I just know it will do better than I'm doing, just trying to improve myself.
I've blown by many, many "fast cars" on mountain roads, inc. Mustangs, a Mercedes (that was modded and "dogging it"), supped up imports, and the like. I just know I am not driving on the edge as well as I could. I also know that I am habitually doing gas and brake like on an FR, which is wrong for an FF.
Thanks for the posts.

My current set-up is:
Suspension:
TRD strut bar
TRD springs (one of the best springs available for corning, from what several told me before I got them)
Hotchkis f/r sways

So, far I am VERY happy with that setup. It sharpens up the decent handling of the B into something far better than it should be.

Wheels: 17lb 16x7 Tenzo R Meister
Rubber: 225/50/16 BF Goodrich G-Force Sports

Each made a massive improvement and sharpened the handling and improved the balance. My uncle, who has built and raced cars over the years loves the set-up and wants me to duplicate it for him if/when he gets an xB to replace his Chevy SSR (burns through tires that are WAY too expensive and hard to get parts for).
He test drove mine on the Blue Ridge twisties over Thanksgiving and it impressed the **** out of him enough that it now tops more "sportier" cars he was planning to look into. Plus, the room can be used to carry his RC planes and other project stuff . . .

My next suspension change is struts/shocks. I've got to figure out who makes what and what a good set up is with the springs and sways. Presently, I'm thinking the TRD ones.
 

·
Royal Floor Sweeper
Joined
·
4,314 Posts
Discussion Starter · #8 · (Edited)
I thought the strut bar keeps your body's structure from flexing when you are turning. Thought that was the same as body roll.
Body roll is the lean that the vehicle body feels when you are cornering-> namely the sensation that it is trying to top over.
With the TRD springs and Hotchkis sways, I don't feel ANY significant body roll at all.

The strut bar sharpens the front when handling, by both bracing the body across the top of the engine bay AND by locking the top of the MacPherson suspension struts together, so they aren't moving counter to one another- which affects how the front both "feels" in a corner and how the wheels geometry place the wheels and wheel movement in a corner (when the strut is under stress)
 

·
Royal Floor Sweeper
Joined
·
4,314 Posts
Discussion Starter · #10 ·
I want to add one more thing:
What is fast in an autocross doesn't necessarily translate to a mountain twisty. The set ups and handling characteristics are rather different.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
781 Posts
I thought the strut bar keeps your body's structure from flexing when you are turning. Thought that was the same as body roll.
Not at all, body roll is between the wheels and the body, front tower rigidity is purely front chassis (rear tower rigidity being rear chassis). The purpose of a front tower brace is to maintain steering geometry, totally separate from body roll.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
781 Posts
I am happy with the "feel" of mine. I just know it will do better than I'm doing, just trying to improve myself.
I've blown by many, many "fast cars" on mountain roads, inc. Mustangs, a Mercedes (that was modded and "dogging it"), supped up imports, and the like. I just know I am not driving on the edge as well as I could. I also know that I am habitually doing gas and brake like on an FR, which is wrong for an FF.
Never before ran into "FF" for FWD and "FR" for RWD (no idea what that first "F" stands for), but though I realize you're just trying to achieve your best with your xB2, please remember to be safe :)! There are potential disadvantages to running on the "edge" :(.

Very best -- Trevor :)
 

·
Royal Floor Sweeper
Joined
·
4,314 Posts
Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Those are the shorthand used in most of the world, in relation to engine placement and driving wheels.
FR-> Front engine, rear wheel drive
FF-> front engine, rear wheel drive
MR-> Mid engine (engine between the axles-almost invariably BEHIND the driver/passengers), rear wheel drive
RR-> rear engine (engine behind the rear axle), rear wheel drive
F4 or FA-> front engine, 4 wheel drive (also simply listed as AWD- All Wheel Drive)

The MR in "MR2" means mid-engine, rear wheel drive. Most modern Ferraris and Lamborghinis, and the Porsche Boxster are other examples.
"Classic" examples of RR are the VW Bug and the Porsche 365 and 911.
 

·
Royal Floor Sweeper
Joined
·
4,314 Posts
Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Never before ran into "FF" for FWD and "FR" for RWD (no idea what that first "F" stands for), but though I realize you're just trying to achieve your best with your xB2, please remember to be safe :)! There are potential disadvantages to running on the "edge" :(.

Very best -- Trevor :)
My "play road" is a particular road just past the North Carolina line from South Carolina, which has 2-lanes up and one lane down in all but 1 curve (which has an up-lane 1.5 wide). It has a number of great sweepers and a series of 90 degree lefts. It is an EXCELLENT test road to learn and play with techniques. Not far away are TIGHT sharp roads and a number of 180-hairpins. Those are a blast, but NOT for testing techniques!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
781 Posts
My "play road" is a particular road just past the North Carolina line from South Carolina, which has 2-lanes up and one lane down in all but 1 curve (which has an up-lane 1.5 wide). It has a number of great sweepers and a series of 90 degree lefts. It is an EXCELLENT test road to learn and play with techniques. Not far away are TIGHT sharp roads and a number of 180-hairpins. Those are a blast, but NOT for testing techniques!
Please be alert and God bless :)!
 

·
Royal Floor Sweeper
Joined
·
4,314 Posts
Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Oh, I should add this . . .
My biggest concern is NOT wrecking my car. I never have, even when having the Miata in 4-wheel drifts on that same road. The reason I like that road is that if I keep in the left lane, I have a whole lane before I hit anything. It's the safest sharp road I know or have ever seen.
Second: the speed limit is 55, which is at the upper limit or above that feasible on the road.
 

·
Royal Floor Sweeper
Joined
·
4,314 Posts
Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Something occurred to me that I should add . . .

My interest and the benefit of this kinda thread is this:
Knowing what your vehicle does in a corner and how to best react is a safety benefit-> avoiding a potentially dangerous situation when on the road. Such would be an unexpected branch, rock, or other debris on the road when driving normally.
That has saved me a NUMBER of times from having a major accident.
I've avoided stuff, inc. animals (specifically a COW that would have totalled my car if I hit it). Also, knowing how to react to a loose ground situation (from playing on dirt and gravel and inducing spins in wide-open areas, just to know what it feels like and how to react) has saved me from a multi-car accident when I hydroplaned while boxed-in on an interstate (construction area with those concrete moveable barricades blocking/inhibiting the normal draining). I drifted sideways and just KNEW I hit the car beside me. So, I turned on the hazards and got off the interstate. A car behind me followed, but no one else did! I looked and zero damage except for some gray on the tire (touched the barrier). The other driver was so impressed with me avoiding EVERYTHING when he expected a 6-car wreck, he followed me to find out how I managed to recover from he knew was a spin starting.
I just used appropriate countersteer to stayed in my lane . . .

I also recommend finding some safe, relatively remote empty road to experience what ABS feels like when braking and to KNOW what the actual stopping distances are in your car. Otherwise, when a real panic stop happens, one hits the ABS when braking, the odd pulsating is felt, and the foot comes OFF the brakes . . . NOT a good thing. A driver NEEDS to know what to expect BEFORE it happens for real.
And when it happens, one does NOT have time to think through what to do, or it is over before a correct response is decided. It has to be an instant natural reaction . . .

Such needs to be practiced in a safe-as-possible environment.

That's what I'm after here. NOT street racing, or someone flying into a wall or off a cliff!
If you do, it ain't anyone's fault but your own.
And NOT of this forum or any poster in it (other than you).
 

·
Royal Floor Sweeper
Joined
·
4,314 Posts
Discussion Starter · #18 ·

·
Registered
Joined
·
67 Posts
I completely agree with you there. I learned to drive from racing go-karts for 12+ years. Really has taught me how to counter steer and how to handle the car. Still probably need to work on my braking but I've never owned/drove a car with abs so I would probably have to get use to it.
 
1 - 19 of 19 Posts
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top